Caitlin Morse is absolutely correct. Major medical device companies want someone to be a contributor right out of the box. Only being a firm disciplined engineer will do that and that means being a mechanical, electrical, or chemical engineer. Too many biomedical engineering programs are, as she states, scattered. They are engineering lightweight, almost pandering to the students' wants. Unfortunately, those don't usually meet the students' true needs, to be adequately prepared for industry. In time in industry, many of those biomedical engineering majors end up in secondary engineering or clinical roles, more than likely satisfying, but just not leading the way.

I fully agree with Caitlin. I have been in this field >30 years and I will attest that having a fallback /primary area of education is primary.
I have been through many "consolidations", " right sizing's", layoffs, company closures due to purchases, and I will attest that , from a marketing of yourself perspective, having several skills will make you more desirable. I am a mechanical engineer, and have helped move plant operations from point A to point B, performed validations on facilities, equipment, utilities , water systems , molding systems etc.
I am very familiar the requirements for sterilization, material requirements, implant requirements etc.
All these piggy backed of a fundamental Mechanical Engineer degree and understanding of the costing ( ROI, Future cash worth etc) , understanding PLC coding ( ES Logix), material sciences ( leachabilities, RF requirements, manufacturability) Statistical analysis of process / product and in short....these disciplines are very much in demand and are needed constantly and be even covered in a BASIC BIOMED COURS. You need a primary degree ( Mechanical, Computer Science, Chemical, Electrical etc) and get the BioMed as a minor.
To do otherwise will certainly limit / impede your marketability and earning potential.

This is 100% true.

Your major absolutely must give you a place to ENTER your industry.

(1.) I entered.
(2.) Worked very hard in manufacturing engineering + process + quality for 15 years. Not my calling.
(3.) Then started designing in 1999.
(4.) And am doing well, thanks in part to those early 15 years.
(5.) But I still would have rather gone directly into design.

If you need more detail, glad to supply it. Just fully committed on projects at the moment (a moment lasting several months, so far). 😊

Do what you want to do, and be sure to select a college major which will help you open that door!

I couldn't disagree more with this one. It's really a shame that we are propagating this outdated perception of biomedical engineering - the old "jack of all trades, master of none" stereotype. As a biomedical engineering undergrad major 27 years ago, with a solid foundation of electrical and mechanical courses, I built bread-board ECG devices and created finite element models of defibrillation. I worked as a software development engineer for medical devices, coded CNCs and PLCs in manufacturing, and built large scale healthcare IT software for many years. Today I direct the design of ECG and defibrillation devices. I have hired a number of recent biomedical engineering grads, who have made fantastically amazing systems engineers, software engineers, project managers, validation test engineers, and yes, even quality/regulatory engineers. While it's certainly very important to have deep expertise in EE and ME on the team, having a biomed that understands the physiology and puts the puzzle pieces together into a usable form is a highly valuable asset.

I am afraid I will have to be the first to disagree, at least wrt to how black and white the advice is depicted.
In terms of background, I have been in the med device for more than 30 years, and I have hired 100's of engineers, some with Biomedical Engineering degrees, some w/o.
The issue is not the title on the degree, the issue is the curriculum which is offered or chosen by the student.
I have seen graduates with a Biomedical Engineering who followed mostly a biology curriculum (e.g. UC San Diego). Indeed, not marketab;e in the med device world, not in the IVD world (as they are not Molecular Biology grads); these go to the botom of the pile.
I have also seen engineers who have indeed dabbled in a little bit of all disciplines, but master none. Agreed, they also go to the bottom of the pile.
But I have seen many who focused (as shown by their projects, internships, choice of courses) in e.g. Mechanical Engineering (e.g. UC Berkeley); they get to the top of the pile, because they have a marketable skill, but also understand the problem domain, the echosystem, etc.
Similarly, I have hired Biomedical Engineers who had focused on software (e.g. image processing, computer vision, etc.). Again, they go straight to the top of the pie, ahead of the CS grads.
And even though you have a ME degree, if your track record focused on automotive applications (gears, engines, combustion, etc.), you will not get hired by a med device firm.
So it is not the title on the piece of paper of your degree, it is what you choose to focus on as a student, what you interned in, which will distinguish you from the crowd of applicants.
And as a Biomed Engineer, you at least have shown an interest in the subject, and had a somehow better opportunity to find marketable projects/courses/internships...
So I would say instead that if you already know you would like to work in the med device industry, then yes, go for a Biomed Engineering degree, but then work on your resume while in school (do not think the title alone willl get you hired). And yes, avoid the risk of knowing a little bit about a lot, instead of a lot about some specific engineering skill.

I totally agree with Caitlin and have for the entirety of my career....now going on to 45 years. Getting “a little bit of this and a little bit of that” is expecting a great meal from a buffet.
When hiring entry level positions for large multinational device companies or small start ups I/we looked for hard engineering skills, preferably with a graduate level education. We needed MEs or polymer engineers or packaging engineers or material science specialists (metallurgists, foundry specialists, polymer specialists) or process engineers...the ‘bio’ part was considered to be an extra or was covered in “On the job training” and project participation. We looked for curious people, people with excellent communication skills....minoring in Biomedical just gives you a bit of additional understanding.....do you really need to understand counter-current multiplier diffusion concepts in renal glomeruli to participate in the design of a new dialysis system (unless , of course, that is the new, novel concept being exploited?j

I totally agree with Caitlin and have for the entirety of my career....now going on to 45 years. Getting “a little bit of this and a little bit of that” is expecting a great meal from a buffet.
When hiring entry level positions for large multinational device companies or small start ups I/we looked for hard engineering skills, preferably with a graduate level education. We needed MEs or polymer engineers or packaging engineers or material science specialists (metallurgists, foundry specialists, polymer specialists) or process engineers...the ‘bio’ part was considered to be an extra or was covered in “On the job training” and project participation. We looked for curious people, people with excellent communication skills....minoring in Biomedical just gives you a bit of additional understanding.....do you really need to understand counter-current multiplier diffusion concepts in renal glomeruli to participate in the design of a new dialysis system (unless , of course, that is the new, novel concept being exploited?j

Like all things, it depends. Are you going for a graduate degree? What university are you attending? How are your electives structured? Are you looking to get into engineering design or biophysics? Research? Product design?

And like all degrees, you need to select your major and university based on what you want at the end. Most BME departments will allow you to adapt your curriculum based on what you plan to do. If you are expecting to get an engineering design position at a major device manufacturer with just the generic broad BME curriculum, then you may experience some difficulty unless you are extremely engaging and clever. But if you are planning to pursue a graduate degree, then the general BME curriculum is usually a good thing. This is what I did and had several offers after graduate school starting in product design, moving to engineering management and ultimately to product safety and regulatory affairs.

So I wouldn't reject a BME degree out of hand. Just go into it with your eyes open and knowing what you want.

The average undergrad will normally not have access to very much industry insight — not on our level — and I think that was at the root of the original suggestion from the interview.

It's a great discussion topic, for sure. I did major in BME, but was never a practicing engineer. I moved into the business side almost immediately, and lots of people viewed the BME degree as bad because I didn't have the typical business degree. But, the BME degree does allow me to understand the products and how they work (I spent a lot of time with engineers) and can then explain them in easier to digest buckets for other people.

I do view my degree as an ingredient in the Jim salad (engineering, MBA, sales & marketing, regulatory affairs, government affairs, business analysis, sales operations, health economics & reimbursement) which makes me unique, but then again lots of companies view it as "too much of not enough" which circles back to Caitlin's original comment.

Broad one-size-fits-all comments are hard to do these days, so I can't give a full endorsement of the "don't major" tenet.

Omar M. Khateeb
Director of Growth | Marketing Leader in Medical Devices | Speaker | Mentor
Cant wait to listen Joe Hage! Congrats on launching the podcast

Joe Hage
Chairman at MedicalDevicesGroup
I should probably have you on it, Omar M. Khateeb. DM me.

Andrew Strakhman BSBE
Open to opportunities | Biomedical Engineering Graduate from the University of Hartford |
Tad late now. I’m sure that all of us BME majors will find something

Corben Crew
Enthusiastic Recent Grad seeking a biomedical engineering role!
It's sad no one says this sooner and as smart as some of us are there is the preconceived notion we are less skilled than our ME or EE peers at the same tasks even if we are better skilled because our major is seen as rounded not skilled.

Joe Hage
Chairman at MedicalDevicesGroup
I feel guilty now. I didn't stop to think "how will current BME majors and recent graduates feel about this post." I'm sorry, Andrew and Corben. Yet I can't think of a softer-yet-effective way to share her insight.

Corben Crew
Enthusiastic Recent Grad seeking a biomedical engineering role!
I think it is actually helpful to share as well, luckily not everyone shares this mentality. But I don't think she is wrong. So thank you for sharing hopefully it helps to influence some of the younger generation or shifts the mindset of the older hiring generation to consider us though they don't do so currently.

Corben Crew
Enthusiastic Recent Grad seeking a biomedical engineering role!
Joe Hage many employers don't realize that now a days you can get a focus within biomedical engineering that gives you a deeper background ie. Focus in Bioinstrumentation (3 high level E.E courses and 1 mid level C.S course), focus in biomechanics/biomimicry (3 high level M.E and 1 high level anatomy course) , focus in biostatistics (2 high level C.S. and 2 high level Mathematics courses). That actually give you experience working on close to production devices on multidisciplinary teams. But because of the preconceived notion of the unfocused discipline they fail to realize that experience can level the playing field in terms of creating and contributive output. We do not learn any of our higher level material in a lower quality that a pure engineering subject and yet we can keep up and sometimes surpass them in their own coursework. I think when employers understand that all engineers are trained in developing a process they will be less reluctant to hirer a multidisciplinary engineer who can tie together the loose ends between developers and contribute just the same.

Caitlin Morse, PMP
Medical Device Commercialization Consultant
This is exactly why I only give this advice to high schoolers or college students who ask me about being a medical device engineer. I know plenty of skilled biomedical engineers making a real impact in our industry. I have just seen a lot of recent grads frustrated with their job search right out of school. The degree can be useful for those who want to be medical device entrepreneurs right out of school or as a pre-med degree or in combination with an MBA, etc.

My advice for recent biomed engineering graduates would be to highlight (or obtain) practical skills like CAD modeling, soldering, and excellent writing/justification skills (It is not uncommon for med dev engineers to spend 30% of their time writing). Likewise, if you had a specialization, make it obvious. I’m not saying it is how it should be, but it is what I have seen of how it is...

Joe Hage
Chairman at MedicalDevicesGroup
Thank you for sparking the discussion, Caitlin Morse, PMP.

Julie Omohundro
Principal Consultant at Class Three, LLC
It seems like Caitlin's advice is geared toward those who want to do design engineering, where what they are designing is a medical device. and who are looking for a job at graduation where they will get to do this. I'm not the authority on this, but her advice sounds pretty much on target.

I think biomedical engineering is a better fit for someone who wants to be more broadly involved in medical device design and development. For that, I think you should have modest expectations of any undergraduate degree. The best biomedical engineer I've worked with in recent memory had an MS and PhD in biomedical engineering, and had also done extensive pre-med work.

Caitlin Morse, PMP
Medical Device Commercialization Consultant
Yes, that was exactly the context of this conversation.

Doug McDonald
Surgical Laser Consultant, Western Canada at Clarion Medical Technologies
Caitlin's comments are applicable to many career paths but it's not a negative as some comments seem to suggest. You have a choice in pursuing your career between a direct path where you are taught the skills needed to hit the ground running when you graduate or one that starts broad-based followed by focusing on a more specific area. The former's advantage is that it's faster to be ready to work and be productive when an employer wants your specific skills. The latter is beneficial in that it may open other doors and interests before you zero in on your specialty and can help get a broader perspective and understanding of related areas that you will be involved with as well as knowing your specialty. The problem is when one route claims to be the other and doesn't fulfill its promise. If it's a Technical School or a specific degree in say electrical engineering then you better be operational and productive when you graduate, not lacking the necessary skills to perform a job . If it's a general undergrad degree at university then you need to follow up with a "working degree" or diploma so you can apply yourself quickly for your employer or your own company but that undergrad degree can have substantial value. Each to their own.

Jagmohan Singh RISHI CEOs COACH
Global Head L&D- Digital Customer Experiences | 10X Results Coach Mentor | Author | Global Speaker
Better be skilled than not ; esp Digital Skills

Fabrice Morin
Manager of sub-project 10 in the Human Brain Project at Technical University of Munich
Absolutely spot on, and applies to other fields too.

Steve Maylish
Chief Commercial Officer, Fusion Biotec
If you want to go into medical device engineering design from school, you will have a better chance with a more focused discipline like software, mechanical or electrical engineering.

Joe Hage
Chairman at MedicalDevicesGroup
I invite subscribers to visit the original post at https://medgroup.biz/morse where there's quite a bit of disagreement over this one.

Joe,
Don't feel too guilty. This advice can help someone who just graduated. I had one of those majors that leaned toward manufacturing engineering, but knew that I needed to emphasize hard skills. Knowing that, I updated my presentation, and reordered the selling points on my resume so that it leaned toward design (yet was still 100% factual). I didn't make the jump from Quality to Design on one hop, but a new grad might be able to be more successful than I was if they are seeking THAT FIRST JOB.
So THIS THREAD could be some great advice for them, and help them NOT get screened out of that design job they are trying to win!

Michael Gasik
Professor at Aalto CHEM
I guess this depends what is exactly BME course curriculum offering, and it varies between the unis. There are also hybrid options we are trying now in one case...

Tim Maguire
Director Corporate Development at Luye Pharma Group
In my experience I have seen more success for students in BME in a graduate degree. It's less useful as an undergraduate major.

Tim Maguire
Director Corporate Development at Luye Pharma Group
In general the biotech / medtech field is very crowded now too. There is a lot of difficulty for students in BME to find careers. I think majoring in ChemE / MechE/ or EE would be a better choice.

Allow me to comment, as I work in higher education in biomedical engineering. This is down wave of a cycle. Until the 80s most of us had a degree in some traditional engineering (mechanical, civil, electrical) and then learned the trade along the ways. then the first generation of biomedical Engineers came out, and they were a bit a Jack of all trades, which was good in some cases, not so much in others.
Today, we are way more sophisticated. So next to the traditional biomedical engineering degree, we have for example degrees in mechanical engineering with Biomechanics (I started one in Sheffield UK, and now one will kickoff in Bologna next year). so we can offer industry graduates who have a huge breath and not so much depth, or some less breath and more depth.
Last, if you really want to mix match, MUCH better you do a BS in Mechanical or Electrical Engineering and then an MS in Biomedical Engineering. This way you get some more solid foundations of things like solid mechanics.

This is a great topic; continuing the discussion from Workforce panel discussion at the WA Medical Device Summit.
What I see missing is context and framework. A number of folks answer universal and philosophical questions assuming a particular meaning or focus for the term "Engineering."

This is specifically about Undergraduate major and it is also about determining career preference. I wish we'd started with that.
1-Does the student want to be part of the core engineering design team? That requires solid skills in a particular area (EE, ME, CE, SE), so they should get that degree. On top of that, industry courses of interest can be added. These folks can always go back (frequently at employer expense) and get a graduate degree in Biomedical Engineering.
2. Does the student prefer designing the interface or other functional product aspects? Look at a degree in human factors or product design; two distinct disciplines that are more about an environment and how a product is used.
3. Prefer to focus at the macro or integration level? Systems or quality engineering are good career choices. This would be a good case for a Biomedical Engineering major with additional coursework and minor(s) in a discipline of choice (EE/ME/CE/SE/HF).

On top of all this, the field of Biomedical Engineering is still rapidly evolving. There is no consensus on curriculum across major university programs. This means that a student must consider apples to apples, what each program is offering and if it meets their initial career goals.

One of Joe's comment responses sums up a core decision point: students "have a choice in pursuing your career between a direct path where you are taught the skills needed to hit the ground running when you graduate or one that starts broad-based followed by focusing on a more specific area." And as most of us on this forum know very well, career goals and interests change as we gain experience. One more bit. Every engineer needs to learn to write! If the basic program lets once slip through without at least one rigorous course in English Composition, take a Technical Writing course; it will impact the pace of the career.

What I see here is massive career opportunity for seasoned engineering professionals to develop a career counseling program to help 17-19 year-olds navigate all this complexity and variety. Yes, families will pay for that if they understand the value proposition.

My Thoughts:

"Well, yes, biomedical engineering is quite hard because it involves the study of the two toughest subjects, that is, medical and engineering. We will guide you here in this article about biomedical engineering and its relevant concepts so you can decide whether you should finalize biomedical engineering as your major or not. We will first start with what biomedical engineering is and then will look at the details of why it is considered hard."

Source: https://educatoroid.com/is-biomedical-engineering-hard/

You can also read this article Is Biomedical Engineering Hard.