Gavin Ritz 
CEO | Strategist | Entrepreneur | Educationist | Innovator | Inventor |

well I guess if one believes that a vaccine will change their DNA 😲

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

You will appreciate this then. It seems hugely fitting:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-vaccines-versus-purity-of-essence/

Hard not to enjoy Dr. Strangelove. It was an excellent film. Much to be leaned from the mindshaft gap.

Renee T. Bryan
Strategic Marketing Consultant | Outsourced or in-house marketing strategy, planning, budgeting & execution

My mother says, "You can't fix stupid" and now I believe her.

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

It's hugely difficult to listen and understand when moms are lecturing you. Their wisdom is often deeper than that of the children, although children truly speak from the heart. Take comfort that at least now you know and it is possible to move through it and become a better person. The many lessons of Gary Sinise can build great character. https://www.journal-news.net/journal-news/you-cant-fix-stupid/article_7ec27705-4973-52e6-a517-68dc82898074.html https://www.journal-news.net/journal-news/you-cant-fix-stupid/article_7ec27705-4973-52e6-a517-68dc82898074.html

Christine Zomorodian
Innovative practitioner of regulatory compliance and process improvements

For those saying this topic is "inappropriate" for LinkedIn because it is "political," that's not a credible position.

The pandemic of the unvaccinated is affecting critical drug supply chains for patients with cancer and immune-mediated diseases. Hospitals cannot get enough of certain drugs to treat their existing patients with severe chronic or potentially terminal diseases. We have drug shortages (induced by COVID infections among the unvaccinated) of monoclonal antibodies and other critical drugs that are affecting healthcare delivery. This is in addition to the widespread supply chain problems, around the globe, induced by the ongoing pandemic.

Case in point: Seattle Cancer Care Alliance is experiencing the shortage in Tocilizumab (described below 👇) and cannot treat all of their current blood cancer patients. Last week, I was there with a blood cancer patient whose oncologist TOLD HER that they didn't have enough drug to execute her treatment protocol because of the shortage (once FDA approved this MAB for COVID).

 https://www.pharmacypracticenews.com/Online-First/Article/09-21/IV-Tocilizumab-Shortage-Raises-Ethical-Issues-Supply-Challenges-for-Health-Systems/64646

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

100% political, yet appropriate. This is all policy driven, policy being the practice of good government. It's appropriate because governments and businesses are doing the policing. The term "pandemic of the unvaccinated" is a recent tool to instill fear and incite political division while quickly diverting attention away from vaccine efficacy, policy dissension, and large swaths of the population who are not open to swallowing mandatory Kool-aid.

We've had drug and supply chain shortages for a very long time in many areas of economic importance. The pandemic inflamed key gaps in our excessively profit-centric medical system. Policies mandated treatment protocols. Lock downs, facility restrictions, labor challenges, and shortages began well prior to the shot heard round the world.

This posturing was necessary for the acquisition of the collective mind and mass experimentation. Planning, marketing, strategies, talking points, global orchestration, product innovation, patenting, contracts, and pre-orders were all done well in advance.

The shortages might be viewed as profiteering and lacking access to resources that were disabled. It's hard to make money on expired (Actemra/RoActemra) patents until 400% growth comes along.

Jerry Fluderski
Field Engineering Specialist at Roche - Large Reference Labs Team

Pandemic of who???

https://twitter.com/freedomisrael_/status/1435582637108863005?s=21

Christine Zomorodian
Innovative practitioner of regulatory compliance and process improvements

Richard Roth I respectfully disagree. If policy were actually politics, we would see a 100% overhaul of every Federal policy position (and articulation) every time the Administration changed party. That has never been the case. In fact, there is strong intention to maintain consistency of stable policies (many of which are attached to law and regulation) between administrations. In part, to avoid economic, civic and international relations anarchy, Policy change used to be intentional and surgical; at least until 2017.

Just because political activists attempt to obfuscate the differences for hyperbole or expediency, does not make it so, nor impact the vast number of policies followed by Federal (or for that matter, state) agencies. Federal public health policy was not controversial nor political until the last administration chose to make it so.

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

Christine Z. My two cents: Far more policy overhaul began under the Bush/Obama administration. Case in point the Affordable Care Act and the outsourcing of American interest. Not clear when we turned the full reigns of power over to the WHO and when the FDA bowed to politics and big-pharma, but it appears to have happened well prior to Trump.

https://www.newsweek.com/how-bush-obama-ceded-world-health-organization-china-increasing-risk-pandemics-like-coronavirus-1497667

This https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28339427/

Brian Callahan
President at EEC Associates

Can’t force the unwilling to learn something they choose to ignore.

Robert W.
Professor of Physiology and of Radiology at Michigan State University

I find it sad that people scour the internet to learn the "truth" but stop when they find something that bolsters how they feel about it instead. This viral pandemic is just symptomatic of the problem but has dire consequence for getting it wrong.

Robert W.
Professor of Physiology and of Radiology at Michigan State University

I find it sad that people scour the internet to learn the "truth" but stop when they find something that bolsters how they feel about it instead. This viral pandemic is just symptomatic of the problem but has dire consequence for getting it wrong.

Robert W.
Professor of Physiology and of Radiology at Michigan State University

I find it sad that people scour the internet to learn the "truth" but stop when they find something that bolsters how they feel about it instead. This viral pandemic is just symptomatic of the problem but has dire consequence for getting it wrong.

Robert W.
Professor of Physiology and of Radiology at Michigan State University
I find it sad that people scour the internet to learn the "truth" but stop when they find something that bolsters how they feel about it instead. This viral pandemic i

s just symptomatic of the problem but has dire consequence for getting it wrong.

Jim Nelson
UW School of Medicine and Public Health

Well said!

Radim Smitka 
Dreams don’t work unless you do...

This is really terrible, without any evidence of long-term safety of any vaccine, dictatorship... a person is smart, people are dumb... This is not ebola...

Dr. Benedict Broennimann
CEO - Board Certified in General Surgery and Pharmaceutical Medicine

Why not just let both sides in peace and respect their opinions even if you are not sharing them?

Matthias B.
Senior Program Manager at Sanofi

I let the unvaccinated in peace. It's a free society and I do not want a vaccine mandate. But if these people are so sure that the high tech medicine used create the vaccine is shady, or evil or wrong, then please please please stay away from hospitals if / when you get infected: 95% - 99% percent of all vaccine-hesitant infected will be fine anyway, but all the others should not clog up hospital ICU rooms because we have many many people with regular (chronic) disease that need the attention and care.

Dr. Benedict Broennimann
CEO - Board Certified in General Surgery and Pharmaceutical Medicine

Matthias B. R. Only people who are not treated early or at all clog the ICUs. It is well known that IVE -CLARY-Vit D-Zinc has a good effect if administered early.
I did it with myself. C’eared pulmonary symptoms in 48 hours.

N R Chandrasekar MD
Chairman & CEO IQ Medical Devices / PLASTIC/ HAND AND RECONSTRUCTIVE MICROVASCULAR SURGERY at Harvard Medical School

This is what is the fundamental issue in our country, respecting someone’s belief and faith knowing that their belief snd faith is based on story books on these subjects, we have gone to war and have lost millions of lives believing in certain things. If im the CEO any insurance company, I wouldn’t pay for the healthcare care costs which runs over 100’s and millions per patient because they refused to take the vaccine offered for free to protect themselves and others. We have have RESPONSIBILITY WITH CLARITY NOT SOCIAL MEDIA BASED OR YOU TUBE DEGREE BASED KNOWLEDGE AND DELUSIONS! How can you justify putting so many healthcare workers and their family at risk? They listen to the pilot when he says we need to have something checked before we take off, why not respect the scientists? If you know more than we know then bring the cure to the table we are open minded to listen!
Grazie tante 🙏

Dr. Benedict Broennimann
CEO - Board Certified in General Surgery and Pharmaceutical Medicine

N R Chandrasekar MD ivermectin -clarytheomycin-zinc and vit d has proven efficient in early treatment. That’s a fact. Nobody can deny this anymore. More than 75 publixations have demonstrated this. Still the 3$ treatment is not applied. https://www.linkedin.com/in/ACoAAAV08JoBnU0od5iHjjkjkCnv5SROUJeR_kU
Guess why.

William Deberard
Engineering Supervisor at Ducommun Incorporated

That may be true. In the future it might be a good idea to believe reality instead of a bunch of lying bloggers. The medical community has a pretty big credibility issue.

John Strucke
Business Analyst / Oncology Hypercare Lead at Novartis Oncology

The solution is: STOP TESTING FOR ACTIVE INFECTIONS!! The creators of these tests state quite frankly that they are being used against its own design. If the government actually wanted people to live, the focus would be on testing for IMMUNITY - which is the END GOAL OF ANY VACCINE!! Why on earth would an immune individual inject themselves with a vaccine that was created in only one year?? The entire idea of this is simply preposterous.

Jim Nelson
Fully retired at UW School of Medicine and Public Health

Because it works and is safe.
Even if you’re “immune “ the shot strengthens this immunity.

John Strucke 
Business Analyst / Oncology Hypercare Lead at Novartis Oncology

Jim Nelson lies and ignorance. This vaccine actually destroys natural antibodies and replaces them with it’s own, man-made, rNA.

Matthias B. Rönsberg
Senior Program Manager at Sanofi

Nice try, Jim Nelson, but as you can see, you can’t argue with stupid.

That’s sad.

John Strucke: “destroys natural antibodies and replaces them with man made RNA”

Wow. Haven’t heard this one - yet. Would you please show me the science for this bold claim?

BTW: the vaccine was developed in under a week in March 2020: what took so long to distribute it was clinical trials and ramping up manufacturing.

John Strucke
Business Analyst / Oncology Hypercare Lead at Novartis Oncology

Matthias B. R. No argument here. Good luck and “God” bless…Stupidity comes in all forms, friend. Do your research. If you’re on LinkedIn, one would assume intelligence. Also, I’m lmao regarding your rebuttal. Your argument is that the vax was created in one week, therefore safe??? HFS!

Matthias B. Rönsberg
Senior Program Manager at Sanofi

John Strucke

"Your argument is that the vax was created in one week, therefore safe?"
LOL. Your reading comprehension is seriously impaired. Nowhere did I say that.
It is safe because over half a year proper clinicla trials were executed and since then 5 billion shots were distributed. With, compared to covid infection, little harm to minuscule number of patients.

Carmen Ferriero III
Infection Control Account Manager for GETINGE USA

Also think it’s funny we refer to people against this particular vaccine as “anti-vax”. very laughable

Jim Nelson
Fully retired at UW School of Medicine and Public Health

Recent measles episodes in WA indicate that the anti-vaccine community is not focused on just “this particular vaccine “. The selfish NO to the common good did not exist for reducing the ravages of small pox and polio. It’s the new politics of unbridled narcissism.

John Strucke
Business Analyst / Oncology Hypercare Lead at Novartis Oncology

But whatever: you type of people think we are idiots and the sentiment is reciprocated, for sure.

Carmen Ferriero III
Infection Control Account Manager for GETINGE USA

Jim Nelson I think there is definitely an “antivax” group , however, the majority of the unvaxed ppl don’t trust this vax and there are obvious reasons for that ….

Carmen Ferriero III
Infection Control Account Manager for GETINGE USA

i vote we keep politics off of linked in. I come here for professional advice, to help others, motivation etc. If i want to hear about Covid and conspiracies i’ll jump on facebook . By now we all know the risks , if someone chooses not to get vaccinated that’s on them and by no means affects myself or my loved ones….

Christine Zomorodian
Innovative practitioner of regulatory compliance and process improvements

Why is this discussion appropriate? Because we have a lot of emerging data that the COVID antivax conspiracy disinformation effort is dramatically affecting our healthcare delivery system. There is already a labor shortage and providers and other healthcare professionals are quitting at a much faster rate than prepandemic levels. We also know that low vaccination rates are affecting the economy, government spending, and insurance rates.
All of these trends have an impact on our particular industry: medical product development and manufacturing.

Wail Khatib
Group Director, Epsilon Pharma

Hello Every One, thanks again Joe for opening this chanel of discussion, so it may lead hopefully for better understanding and how may deal with it.

I mentioned below 5 questions that no one have given a crystal clear answer,

COV-19 has been linked in humans mind to death, right? Or wrong?

If right, then our body specythe brain 🧠 refuses this fact, no one want die so the brain is prepared prospectively .

When human got age, the fear become more

Until the person develop a disease which is
thanatophobia ( Fear of Death)

So may be once the one got the test result +ve then the trigger ring the brain prospective rejection which may appear most commonly with SOB , increase HR, low immunity etc.

So while he is in the disease 🦠 the process become more aggressive and aggressive until the patient became unconscious , then other symptoms will start to apear,

Is this way of thinking possible?! Or not,

Thats why the vaxin is very safe, to the level it is safer thatn non sterile saline inj ,
Does non sterile saline shot kill?! Of course not

No worries about the vaxin pls worry about your thoughts 💭 about it and about the disease

All the. Best

Joe Hage
Chairman, Medical Devices Group (360,000 members)

"𝗩𝗮𝗰𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗻𝗰𝘆 𝗲𝗮𝘀𝗲𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗲𝗲𝘁𝗵 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝗹𝘁𝗮 𝘀𝘂𝗿𝗴𝗲: 𝗣𝗢𝗟𝗟" Includes charts and ABC News video. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/vaccine-hesitancy-eases-teeth-delta-surge-poll/story?id=79791316

David Meeks
Quality Leader in Life Sciences

Not impossible at all. Many anti-vax folks have changed their minds, many with their dying words. Some as they mourn loved ones. It's tragic and horrifying.

Gary Robidoux
Business Development Representative at Introhive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5kRIyjQXG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqaci636neQ
I am not understanding the need for anti vaccinations, protest, and whatnot, it's our right as Americans to have an opinion, absolutely!!!
You all have the right, to say no, but saying no is very well contributing to spreading this Delta Variant.
I understand facts, and the youtube post is from a Chief immunologist, which explains a lot of the FACTS, it's basically stated which many already know, it's doesn't matter if you are vaccinated, you can still contract the Delta Variant if your child is or is not or are vaccinated, they can still contract the Delta Variant, if you have had the Corna Virus, sorry, you can still contract the Delta Variant, and the most unfortunate part is this, it's being spread by those that are not vaccinated, that means you can give it to others, like co-workers, you husband or wife, your relatives, and your children, don't take it from me, watch the video. I understand many don't trust, I get it, I was reluctant as well, but I don't have DR. or Chief, or Immunologist, before or after my name, Dr. Catherine O'Neal, this is a common message, not just in Louisana, but in virtually every Trauma center in the US.

Paul M. Stein
Medical Device Industry Leader, Entrepreneur, and Investor

Yes, it is impossible. The difference is the intelligence to be willing to accept intelligence. Some have it and some don't. For the past year, the virus is fixing stupid.

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

Such a statement casts a spotlight on the problems of society and certain intellectuals that are frequently in positions of power and leadership. Where there is intelligence, wisdom should play a necessary balance and very frequently (history has proven this repeatedly) it is lacking. What is even more striking is the leadership in the medical community and the clearly diverse views of those who have already shared in this topic. Such persons will speak on behalf of their company titles such negative views on the humanity they and their companies claim to serve. It's very disturbing to see that even the intelligent can't find unity or those that are in opposition are viewed as unintelligent and worthy of whatever may come.

Paul M. Stein
Medical Device Industry Leader, Entrepreneur, and Investor

Richard Roth I disagree. The statement is formed over the past two years of intense frustration trying to convince the unconvinceable with all of our effort, knowledge, and reason. What should we keep on trying to do? When people incessantly act in every possible way to exclaim their raw stupidity, what can we do??!! Please tell me, and I'll give that a shot.

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

Paul M. Stein I'm no expert on human psychology, but I am human. It is not impossible but is impractical when it crosses from persuasion to perverse coercion. Imagine dating someone and they don't like you but you are passionate for them. They tell you to go away and you try everything possible to force yourself upon them going so far as crossing moral and ethical behaviors to make them love you. 10 bucks says you'll end up with a restraining order or even worse.

In this case, people need to come around in their own due time. In fact, the harder it is pushed the more resistance there will be. People will want to see the freaky stalker behind bars or worse. "Unconvinceable" is the issue. Things shouldn't be forced on anyone..

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

The normal FDA Approvals are on average 12 years and cost over $350 million USD to get a new drug from the lab onto the pharmacy shelf. The FDA plowed this one through and used data that a lot of people are still trying to get their hands on for full peer review. They approved human trials. That last word "trials" gets lost in the arguments. This is still a big experiment and some people want no part in it despite the risks.

One year is nothing to establish efficacy and prove that no long term harm or greater damage will occur. The mad rush also, raises an alarm of mistrust. It raises the question of a more nefarious purpose. It lacks trustworthiness. Kind of like used car salesman who has to tackle and sell to you before you leave the lot. Desperation has a real stink to it. But making safety obligatory and ultimately mandatory isn't the solution.

Paul M. Stein
Medical Device Industry Leader, Entrepreneur, and Investor

I've spoken on multiple occasions with a psychology professor about trying to convince the unconvinceable, particularly regarding COVID-19 vaccination. Regarding coming "around in their own due time," yes, absolutely. He said that these folks have dug their own bias confirmation holes so deeply they themselves can only drag themselves out. They do this by conversing with their own-self-minded compadres and shared experiences. This pulls me right back to Joe's original question, "Is it impossible to persuade..." My "Yes" answer stands. Many people only persuade themselves. Scientists, however, are amazingly easily swayed by facts, evidence, reason, and expert opinion. They are trained to instantly dump their belief sets when these are replaced by what are found to be more correct.

Christine Zomorodian
Innovative practitioner of regulatory compliance and process improvements

Richard Roth The 12 years represents the entire development cycle from discovery work (that includes an IND) through three phases of clinical trials, to final (NDA) market approval. And that is an older statistic that doesn't include the new accelerated pathways.
Here is the released FDA timeline summary for 2019 NDA approvals with the average time from submission to approval at 273.8 days.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/15/2021-00786/fda-drug-review-timeline-transparency-statement-of-policy

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

okay ... thank you for the clarification.

Sean Doctor
Sales and sales management professional with 20+ years of experience in biotech, life sciences, and medical devices.

I would say, I was vaccinated because I could. It's not very difficult, and I was previously exposed.

Gilles Carré
HW/SW Engineer (available)

I keep on hoping, I will change the mind of 2 of my friends. Hoping it will not be too late.

Jim Nelson
Fully retired at UW School of Medicine and Public Health

It’s alarming that these same people trust the Internet rumors about invermectin! They are anti-expert as well as anti-vaccination.

Mark Warner
Software Engineer at Sabre Systems Inc.

Like those folks at NIH
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34145166/

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

https://covid19criticalcare.com/

It would seem that there are very many highly qualified doctors who are simply outright liars then. That is truly sad. Why would they would stake their long careers for attempting to help people?

The list of advocates is actually remarkably large when you look to both sides of the argument. If a bowel of anti-expert turmeric or cup of jello could result in a cure for a disease, should it not be attempted and/or banned from usage?

Isn't helping people the concept? Isn't it the point of this whole working group? The vaccine is currently leaving an unprecedented trail of damage, so why not let people choose their healthcare and religion?

Sure you can argue that the deaths are less on one side than the other, but this is not taking into account the longevity of the study. Time will tell.

https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/03/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-8-27-2021/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

Jim Nelson
Fully retired at UW School of Medicine and Public Health

Mark Warner This indicates a barely detectable improvement of invermectin over placebos. The >90% effectiveness of the vaccine suggests that there is no comparable choice to Vaccination. Purchasing animal doses of invermectin is especially lamentable, with increasing poison control calls being reported. The bottom line: get vaccinated!

Mark Warner
Software Engineer at Sabre Systems Inc.

Ivermectin was approved by the FDA for human use in 1987. Over 3.7 billion doses have been given worldwide. It lead to a Nobel Prize in 2015.
And you, like so many publications, fell for that story about poison control calls. This year there have been fewer than 500 nationwide.

Jim Nelson
Fully retired at UW School of Medicine and Public Health

Mark Warner What was it presided for? Viral disease?

Jim Nelson
Fully retired at UW School of Medicine and Public Health

Jim Nelson It’s primary use is in veterinary medicine. Some studies, hoping that a low-cost drug might help against COVID-19, have shown marginal effectiveness in this setting. It is certainly no room for vaccination

Christine Zomorodian
Innovative practitioner of regulatory compliance and process improvements

Mark Warner the article you cited shows a 15 trial confidence interval (CI) of 0.19-0.73; wide enough for a 6-lane highway. In fact, WSJ retracted an article they wrote about it. https://www.wsj.com/articles/egyptian-ivermectin-study-retracted-covid-11627527903

Many of the studies citing off-label use of Ivermectin have been retracted or so heavily-criticized, they will be.
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/frontiers-removes-controversial-ivermectin-paper-pre-publication-68505
https://ebm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/08/19/bmjebm-2021-111791
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7641520/
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00368504211016936

Subsequently, FDA has published a public health warning to avoid Ivermectin use for COVID https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

Mark Warner
Software Engineer at Sabre Systems Inc.

Jim Nelson I suppose you based that on the FDA tweet telling people not to use bovine ivermectin. Ivermectin is a medication used to treat parasite infestations. In humans, these include head lice, scabies, river blindness (onchocerciasis), strongyloidiasis, trichuriasis, ascariasis, and lymphatic filariasis. In 2018, it was the 420th most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than one hundred thousand prescriptions.

Jeremiah Dufér
CEO, D.X.T.

The good news is they will still vote next year.

Kevin Nelms
West Regional Sales Director - at Vivify Health®

It will be a tough battle, because part of our human nature is “not to admit that we were wrong”. Even when we take performance/aptitude tests, we will make excuses as to why our score is where it is. Swaying will start, when people decide to listen with an open mind, focus on the facts and leave their emotions outside.

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

The comment fell apart early but especially in the last sentence. Swaying is a tool in opposition to acceptance. It is a need to instill a position to achieve an end. By stating people are not deciding to listen makes the assumption that they are not listening and tying that to not having an open mind deliberately vilifies that segment. It is gaslighting at its best. Anyone with an minor amount of intelligence could show you a scatter diagram of facts that would paint all four quadrants and almost certainly justify emotional involvement. Force fitting opinions or positions on people is like telling a gay man he loves women and that he should admit that he is wrong.

Pierre Lonchampt
Medtech and Healthtech Leader. Design thinking and Innovation, Ethics, Quality and Regulations. (Open)Science, Transparency, Opensource, Music.

Thanks Joe. "NO DATA WE COULD BOTH TRUST" - you are really touching a nerve here.

I'll just drop an hypothetical question:

Imagine one day, a tweet starts circulating, claiming for instance that your Apple icloud has been compromised with the one of thousands other users. An Apple's spoke person issues an official statement that it is a false rumor and your data is fine ; but "Anonymous" makes an announcement that it is true and that your data is in the hand of maleficent hackers somewhere.

Who will you believe?

Replace "Anonymous" by Snowden or Stallman and repeat.

Where does trust come from?

N R Chandrasekar MD
Chairman & CEO IQ Medical Devices / PLASTIC/ HAND AND RECONSTRUCTIVE MICROVASCULAR SURGERY at Harvard Medical School

Perhaps it’s the time these nonbelievers of science can depart from this planet and leave this planet in peace! We can’t let thousands of people get killed similar to the effort it has taken to prove the earth is round or goes around the sun! Unfortunately they are ignorant to see what they are doing to others, practically responsible for so many deaths could have been prevented if they RESPONSIBLE to take the damn shot or stay at home! Should we prosecute these irresponsible people?

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM
Let me ask, wasn't science based on non-believers? Do you not see the hypocrisy in your very own words? Such radicalism is scarier indeed. Did the science of nuclear weapons or technologies benefit our world? I'm sure anyone can argue both sides. But saying that Science is the bedrock if a logical fallacy. It would be the equivalent of saying that you are a fan of the Fukushima disaster because it came from Science. Thank you Bill Nye!

Jose De Oliva
Actively Seeking for new opportunities / top Management

What is the prove we have from the science? Why is Israel one of the most vaccinated planet back on the hole? This is what you call science?
I ware a mask and I am double vaccinated. Because I believe on this and not because a scientist or Joe blow told me too. But I will always deeply respect thos one that don't want to get vaccinated, those ones that said NO, because this is the foundation of democracy! NO from a leaving person means simply NO.

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

The fact that you have to make it possible by asking the question gives rise to a position and not an acceptance of duality or a love for living in a truly free nation. My response would be: that it might be best to take a lesson from baseball or Biden. Governments, heads of business, and the people they serve should stop trying so hard and stop demanding to sniff things they shouldn't be sniffing. Both are downright creepy and both are completely ineffective.

Of course it's terrible if people die needlessly, but where is the question on abortion? Where is the question on suicide or permanently injured families now living with adverse effects or no means to support their families? Where are you on the slow death of human trafficking, narcotics, our toxic food chain, or industry feeding addictions?

How about the global wars, genocides, and a generation of love for commercial items of luxury in the name of resource striping and low wage exploitation? Should these questions also be a part of making the impossible possible? Or, should they be accepted as a world of diversity in which we find varying ways vs. methods of coercion?

https://bigthink.com/the-wheelhouse/why-trying-too-hard-in-sports-or-life-can-sabotage-your-success

Jim Nelson
Fully retired at UW School of Medicine and Public Health

Focus on the issue of vaccination. This discussion can’t address all of our other social issues.

Wail Khatib
Group Director, Epsilon Pharma

Thank you Joe for sharing I do not know opinion, still alot of paradoxical statements regarding the COVID-19, let’s exclude the conspiracy theory about the vaccine, by simple thing, if they have agenda why to exhaust themselves they may targeting the new generations through already registered vaccines,

Yet the one million questions, that no one have given clue yet.

1- at the beginning of pandemic in china we saw in the media that people fallen down dead in the streats , but no any other places have faced like this

2- Why children does not affected from COV19, ?

3- why the death rate in countries have not changed in both the average and the distribution among ages group, the death is remain the same majority above 60 years old

4- if the cream chante of the society fear about them selves lets them take the vaccine and do not push others to do and let them sign refused against medical advise , the same thing when some take the vx sign or being informed that the manufacturer legally free from any undesirable consequences that may happen ,

5- in the beginning they told once you infected or vaxinated that's it, later the vaccine immune just for three to six month, and the infected one may develop another episode of infection,

Jim Nelson
Fully retired at UW School of Medicine and Public Health

Several of your points have been rendered moot due to the emergence of the delta variant. Pray for a less virulent mutation that may become endemic and lead to herd immunity. (See final chapter of John Barry’s book on “The Great Pandemic “)

Wail Khatib
Group Director, Epsilon Pharma

May Allah almighty bring all of us the good health , wealth and peace in the whole worlds amd inside ourselves too, amen 🙏🏻

Mark Maloney
Healthcare Compliance, Physician Practice Advocate, Exclusion Screening, Open Payments Reporting, BAA management

Reason rarely wins over faith, but over time, like water over stone, you do wear some down pretty good. I can see it happening.

Richard Roth
Chief Inspiration Officer OTMITM

Should reason ever win over faith? Why would anyone want desire to wear Faith down in someone? Yikes!

A good comment on the topic, "Faith is a prerequisite for reason. In order to reason about anything we must have faith that there are laws of logic which correctly prescribe the correct chain of reasoning. Since laws of logic cannot be observed with the senses, our confidence in them is a type of faith."

Darrell Chiasson
HTM Professional

I have a feeling in the not too distant future, that not having vaccination will be a very restrictive place in this society. Right or wrong.

Kathryn Thompson(She/Her)
Executive Leader Healthcare Operations and Revenue Cycle Management

Agreed on this. Not being able to fully participate in society is likely to be the biggest motivator. Like you said Darrell...right or wrong.

David Pennington, PE
Senior Project Manager at Commissioning Agents, Inc | CAI Consulting

I am aghast at the untold numbers of people who have died because various government entities have denied the existence of effective treatments.

Please follow the science: there are effective treatments for COVID-19. It's not necessary to get vaccinated--hardly works, according to reports--explore the options.

Even what you believe--as you wrote in your post--is not all factually correct. Israel has been reporting that most new hospitalizations and deaths are among the vaccinated, not the unvaccinated.

Some of us--a lot of us, actually--have had the infection and successfully recovered, either with or without treatment. There are good reasons we should NOT get vaccinated and no good reasons we should.

Trust. Something the media and government have squandered till they have none left.

Peggy English, CQE, CSQE
NPI Quality Engineering Manager at Medtronic

Unfortunately people believe what they want to believe; even science. If people don’t believe in science, there is no way to convince them.

Christine Zomorodian
Innovative practitioner of regulatory compliance and process improvements

Just in from Health Canada:
https://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-sc/2021/76365a-eng.php

Brandon Bendes
Co-Founder & President, Woven Orthopedic Technologies

If we want the freedom to control our own health then how is it fair to pick and choose when we do it? It's tough to support government forcing people to get vaccinated and/or outlawing abortion.

If we want freedom of health then let's do it. Grant providers freedom to choose who they treat when a patient poses a threat to the providers' health. Give businesses freedom to retain or hire when an employee poses a threat to their health .

How fast would people change their opinions one way or another if we allowed capitalism to shine here?

Brandon Bendes
Co-Founder & President, Woven Orthopedic Technologies

J o e H a g e 💉interesting. What makes you think so? More freedom, more anarchy?

Joe Hage
Chairman, Medical Devices Group (360,000 members)

Brandon ,economic consequences for actions taken or not.

John Strucke
Business Analyst / Oncology Hypercare Lead at Novartis Oncology

What if companies tested for HIV going forward? Would that be as acceptable?

Joe Hage
Chairman, Medical Devices Group (360,000 members)

Perchance to dream.

Owen Turner
Northern Region Project Manager - TSS Sensitive Freight AU & NZ

I understand as here in Australia we are having the same thing happen, for me each to there own , maybe the Covid Passport we are all going to get after having two jabs may change peoples mind because with the Covid passport you will have more opportunities to Eat out, go to bars, travel on planes, the sad thing that I see and hope it’s very few , is anti Vacus don’t take coved home to there elderly parents and pass on Covid to them, as we know it’s killing our non vaccinated community and it’s sad to see them pass away when it could be avoided if other family members were vaccinated,

BIg O

Australia , Everyone Stay Safe

J o e H a g e
Chairman, Medical Devices Group (360,000 members) 🔥 𝗘𝘅𝗽𝗲𝗿𝘁 𝗠𝗲𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹 𝗗𝗲𝘃𝗶𝗰𝗲 𝗠𝗮𝗿𝗸𝗲𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗴

No scientist, I, John Strucke, but if the virus were eradicated, yet-undeveloped variants would not emerge. We see it now with Delta, where some vaccinated are infected with the variant. Variant "Omega" could be the one that gets someone like Brandon Bendes. See https://www.healthline.com/health-news/unvaccinated-people-are-increasing-the-chances-for-more-coronavirus-variants-heres-how

Dan Chestnut
Seeking an opportunity in Biotech

I think maybe it's different in an epidemic/pandemic which is by definition a public health crisis/emergency 🤔
Individual liberty isn't more important than an entire population's safety from a lethal pathogen, however forced vaccination is not the answer. Perhaps a workable compromise would be for those refusing vaccination for any number of reasons to remain in quarantine?

Brandon Bendes
Co-Founder & President, Woven Orthopedic Technologies

Dan Chestnut would be fantastic if the rest of the country saw it that way too! If we require quarantine for unvaccinated individuals, then that's singling people out and you know people will be screaming discrimination so we're going to need a compromise that treats everybody equally. Who's got some ideas they want to share?

Dan Chestnut
Seeking an opportunity in Biotech

Brandon Bendes yes, I see your point. I thought that also. However, since part of the population is and will be vaccinated for the sars-cov-2 and some won't be, that's also unequal isn't it? The government gave that vaccination(s) free of charge so those are benefits for some and not for others? Perhaps some cannot, for a variety of medical or religious reasons can't get the vaccination. Then that's also unequal. And those others who could, but won't, because they refuse, will continue to get infected becoming, whether surviving their infection or not, incubators for even more pathogenic mutations of the virus which then ravage the population. How's allowing that to happen "equal" or "just" for all those who tried to listen and respond to the public health crisis by getting the original vaccines and because of those other Americans misinformed paranoia now at risk of going through this entire scenario (job losses, scarity of goods, justified fear of infection for themselves and their family, etc etc.) All over again. It seems that the basic "inequality" in this is the ability to be rational and informed, and respond in an appropriate and adapted way, instead of being uninformed, misinformed, irrational, paranoid, maladaptive, way.

Brandon Bendes
Co-Founder & President, Woven Orthopedic Technologies

J o e H a g e 💉You have a great point for those resisting the vaccine. We don't know what will help eradicate the virus but in the meantime, data shows the vaccine helps prevent severe illness, which subsequently helps ensure we don't consume unnecessary hospital resources. It also apparently helps reduce transmission. We're all likely going to get COVID whether we're vaccinated or not but those who aren't getting vaccinated are endangering themselves, the healthcare system, and everybody else around them (especially those who physically can't get vaccinated for reasons outside of their control). Unless an unvaccinated person is staying quarantined and away from others, it seems the decision to avoid the vaccine is an extremely selfish move. Its disappointing to see how many people are OK with the risk of hurting others. Would welcome other perspectives to understand why people are OK with that level of selfishness.

Ulrich O.
Andanza what else.

Talk to them about Denmark: 96% vaccinated of the 60+, more than 80% in all the popoulation. Free life and free movment again!
Thanks to the people and the high vaccination rate of the population. What an example for a responsible society!
But sure, there will be still enough "arguments" to argue against vaccination. 😤

Ulrich O.
Andanza what else.

Talk to them about Denmark: 96% vaccinated of the 60+, more than 80% in all the popoulation. Free life and free movment again!
Thanks to the people and the high vaccination rate of the population. What an example for a responsible society!
But sure, there will be still enough "arguments" to argue against vaccination. 😤

Harry Shonteff
owner of Sew Fine, LLC. Inventor, consultant sewing of implantable medical devices

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/20/health/us-covid-deaths-surpass-1918-pandemic/index.html

Growth Leader - North America at Lifetrack Medical Systems
Paul Johnson

Four and 1/2 months after full vaccination, I took one trip to a medical conference and brought home COVID. Self-isolated, felt like crap for 9 days then finally tested clear 14 days after exposure. The breakthrough was not fun but I can't imagine how bad it would have been had I not been vaccinated. Personally, I sought out a location for vaccination as soon as I was eligible. This is not a political consideration, it is a medical one. I don't want to argue with anyone on the subject, we all are a product of our experiences and at least as adults, can make our own decisions. I, on the other hand, as a child had an older cousin who died of polio. I took that vaccine too!

Kathryn Hampton
MR Modality Manager at United Imaging

I was at that same conference, Paul. I found out after I got home that I was directly exposed. Luckily I did not fall ill & I’m sorry to hear that you did. I’ve been desperately trying to convince my 18 y.o. niece to get vaccinated, but she’s digging in her heels & it’s making me crazy. Just like the OP, nothing I say or show her will convince her. It’s just all very frightening & I can’t help but be mad at her! Ugh!!!